SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
President Donald Trump shook up the Pentagon's top leadership last night, firing the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr. Mr. Brown is the second Black officer to serve as the country's top general. Trump nominated Air Force Lt. Gen. Dan Caine, a retired three-star general, to replace Brown. NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman joins us. Tom, thanks for being with us.
TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Scott.
SIMON: What happened?
BOWMAN: Well, you know, it is stunning, but it actually was expected, Scott. There's been talk for weeks that Gen. Brown would be fired, and a lot of this comes down to a sense the general was chosen for the post because of the color of his skin, not his ability. Now, again, he's the second African American after Colin Powell to hold the top military job, but Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth wrote in his book "War On Warriors" that Brown should be fired because he was pushing diversity programs and questioned whether he got the job because of the color of his skin or his skill.
Hegseth said he made the race card his biggest calling card. Now, Brown did make an emotional video after the death of George Floyd, recalling his discrimination he felt rising through the ranks in the Air Force. But Brown's an accomplished F-16 pilot - held numerous commands. And also it was Trump - during his first term - who nominated him to become Air Force chief.
SIMON: Who's Gen. Caine, the man said to replace him?
BOWMAN: Gen. Caine - he's an F-16 pilot like C.Q. Brown. He rose up through the ranks and met Trump while he was stationed in Baghdad back in 2018, '19. And Trump said Caine told him that ISIS could be defeated quickly, and Trump said he delivered. And what's important to note, Scott, is that Brown came up with the strategy to defeat ISIS. He was going to treat it as a state, not as a terror group where you provide air support to the Kurdish fighters on the ground. He went after their infrastructure, went after their banks. That's what ended the Islamic State. You know, that's something that Trump never mentioned. And Dan Caine more recently spent time working at the CIA. Several people I spoke with at the Pentagon and on Capitol Hill said they had to Google him. He's a retired three-star, so he'll have to come back on active duty, be promoted to four-star rank and will need Senate approval.
SIMON: Secretary Hegseth also fired the top admiral in the Navy, Admiral Lisa Franchetti, the first woman to hold the job. And that's, of course, along with a lot of other firings. Tell us about that.
BOWMAN: Well, again, Hegseth said in his book, you know, she was chosen because of her gender. She rose up the ranks herself, was - commanded a destroyer, two carrier strike groups and also the Sixth Fleet that covers Europe and Asia. So again, this was expected as well. The sense was that her time was coming because, again, they saw her as a diversity hire, as woke. But again, Scott, these admirals and generals, they follow policy. They don't come up with these diversity programs. They're following policy set by civilians, and now they're paying the price.
SIMON: More than 5,000 civilians also being let go from the DOD, aren't they?
BOWMAN: That's right. We'll see that next week. Roughly 5,400, we're told, throughout the Pentagon and also the defense agencies. And that's the first tranche. We're told of up to 55,000 civilian probationary workers who will be let go, and the savings from these firings and other cuts to programs will be used to build more submarines, drones and also missile defense.
SIMON: NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Thanks so much for being with us, Tom.
BOWMAN: You're welcome, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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