SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
President Joe Biden announced a record-shattering act of clemency this week, commuting sentences for nearly 1,500 people and pardoning 39 others. Between that and his choice to pardon his son, Hunter Biden, Biden has faced backlash in the final weeks of his presidency. But as far as pardons are concerned, the president has indicated there's more to come.
As other news outlets have reported, the administration is weighing whether to issue preemptive pardons to some of Donald Trump's perceived enemies before Trump returns to the White House next month. My next guest believes that she could be one of those targets. Sarah Isgur is a legal analyst and a former Justice Department spokesperson under President Trump. Her recent New York Times op-ed is titled "I Don't Want A Pardon From Biden. None Of Us Should." Welcome.
SARAH ISGUR: Thanks for having me.
DETROW: So before we talk more broadly, I want to remind folks why you think you might be in the mix of this conversation to begin with, which - you know, not the most comfortable place to be, but here we are. You mentioned that Kash Patel, who's, of course, the pick to run the FBI, named you, as well as 59 other people, as, quote, "members of the executive deep state" in a book published last year. Why do you think you're on that list?
ISGUR: I actually don't really know, is the truth. There's many of us who were involved at the Department of Justice as Trump political appointees in the Russia investigation headed up by special counsel Robert Mueller. But then there's also many people who were involved in that investigation who aren't on the list. You know, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are considered members of the deep state in his book, but then he defines the deep state as members of the executive branch who try to undermine the president that they serve. But, you know, Joe Biden isn't a member of the deep state under that definition. He's just a political opponent.
DETROW: Right. So let's broaden out because regardless of that list itself, Trump has talked about a lot of specific people who oppose him politically. Former Congresswoman Liz Cheney is a recent example, and many others, who has said that they should be in jail or has said, I will use the Justice Department to go after my political opponents in one way or another. Over and over again, you are arguing nobody in that position should want to be preemptively pardoned. Why are you making that case?
ISGUR: Because these are the very same group of people who assured the Supreme Court and various other federal courts and state courts across the country last year that our justice system had all of these safeguards in place - and so then when the shoe's on the other foot and we're the ones who might be caught up in that justice system, now we're saying we don't trust the justice system? That's ridiculous. We should prove that we mean what we said.
DETROW: I want to ask about something else that you wrote about in that op ed. You make the case that the Hunter Biden pardon fits into the conversation when it comes to trust in the justice system, when it comes to political prosecutions, when it comes to how much the system is viewed as fair. Why?
ISGUR: Well, I mean, frankly, I think that for a lot of people, they only saw Donald Trump undermining the rule of law in the last election. But absolutely, Joe Biden was doing the same thing. During the campaign season, he was professing to trust the system and the rule of law and the Justice Department, his own Justice Department. What could be more damaging than someone in his position saying that he can't even trust the rule of law, even after he had said that he could. Only after it became politically less important did he admit that he didn't have trust in the system. I think that is far more damaging to the rule of law.
DETROW: Than trying to overturn an election?
ISGUR: Well, I'm putting that in a separate category, I guess.
DETROW: Sure, OK.
ISGUR: I'm referring more to, you know, Donald Trump chanting lock her up at rallies in 2016.
DETROW: Got it.
ISGUR: And then he had four years and never brought charges against Hillary Clinton. Neither side has done a lot here to encourage faith from Americans in their system, again, one that's been handed down to us over 200 years. It's easy to tear down institutions. It's very hard to build them up.
DETROW: Let me end with this then because I think there's going to be a lot more pardon news in the coming weeks, in terms of the final weeks of the Biden administration, and the immediate hours, as Trump has promised, of the Trump administration. He's promising to pardon some set of the people convicted of crimes for January 6. What, to you, is the best way to think about the pardon process? What, to you, would be the path forward for how presidents use it given how much trust has been hurt in the Justice Department and our rule of law over the last few years?
ISGUR: The pardon power was supposed to be used as an act of grace, if you will, and the idea that presidents are now using it for political hay to help their political allies or their own family members or donors is gross, frankly. I think it undermines people's faith in the system. It builds up this idea of there's two sets of rules, one for the elites and one for everyone else. And those who actually have worked in the government have dedicated their lives to public service. This is the public service that's now required of you. Don't take the pardon. Actually show what the system is meant to be.
DETROW: Sarah Isgur is a senior editor at The Dispatch and a former Trump Justice Department spokesperson. Thanks so much for talking to us.
ISGUR: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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