STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
The people following all the cabinet announcements include Mike Dubke, who has some experience with the Trump administration. Dubke served as White House communications director briefly in 2017 and is a founder of the Black Rock Group, which is a strategic communications and public affairs firm. Welcome, sir.
MIKE DUBKE: Thank you. Good morning.
INSKEEP: So I'm just thinking through some names. Mehmet Oz - TV star. Pete Hegseth - veteran, but also a TV star. Sean Duffy - former congressman and a TV star. Linda McMahon - government experience, and a pro-wrestling executive. Is a common theme beginning to develop here?
DUBKE: Yes, very much so, and something that was missing in the first Trump administration which was having a cabinet of individuals that understood how to communicate to the American people what the goals and aspirations were of the administration.
INSKEEP: It's interesting you - that you mentioned that. I think of Jim Mattis, the first defense secretary for President Trump. He was a large figure, a powerful figure, but didn't go on television all that much. I think of Lloyd Austin, President Biden's defense secretary, who gives very few interviews. I guess we'd expect something different here.
DUBKE: Yes, as President Trump's first communications director, it was my responsibility to get our cabinet secretaries out on the air. And I've got to tell you it was not an easy task, mainly because these were people focused on the work that they were doing in their positions, and they weren't necessarily focused on delivering the message of the full administration. I think that is a lesson learned from the first time around for the president, and he's picking a cabinet that's very different this time.
INSKEEP: Did cabinet secretaries - in your experience - also avoid the camera sometimes because they were going to inevitably face what they would see as a distracting or embarrassing question about whatever Trump did or said?
DUBKE: That was always part of the equation, yes.
INSKEEP: And do you think that this group of people will just be ready to take on that challenge and say whatever the president does is great?
DUBKE: I think one of the things, and you probably experience this with the guests that you have on more often than not, that once there's a comfort level of being able to discuss even items that might be surprising or uncomfortable, once you do this multiple times, you start to be able to anticipate those questions and develop a response mechanism. When you go on the air, these people that are being nominated right now, they're going to have that defense mechanism.
INSKEEP: I do want to note though, I mean, several of them have a background on Fox News, where they clearly impressed the president with their style. But there is a particular Fox News communication style. It works well for millions of people. It turns off some people, I think, also. Do you think it can work across the board?
DUBKE: There is a want in this country for a level of disruption. There is a way of delivering information on Fox News that is a bit of a disruptor. When Fox News came around, it was disrupting CNN and the major networks. And I do think it will play well, at least for those individuals that voted for Trump, because they want something different in the country.
INSKEEP: Do you wonder if some of these cabinet secretaries will be doing the outward-facing communication like a press secretary while expecting someone else to actually run the department?
DUBKE: I think several of them may fall into the category of being more of a messenger than a manager, yes.
INSKEEP: We're talking about communication, and we're talking about people who run departments that, in some cases, have hundreds of thousands of employees. It seems to me that internal communication is a completely different form. You need to persuade people that you're doing the right thing. You need to persuade people of what you even intend to do and that you know the right way and inspire them. How is that challenge different than going before the cameras and pivoting away when you have to?
DUBKE: It's not just the secretary of each one of these agencies. There's multiple individuals that are confirmed by the Senate and multiple political appointees that are populated throughout each of these agencies. There is something to be said to have the head of an organization be your messenger and allow those political appointees underneath to be the managers.
INSKEEP: But I'm just thinking organizations that I've been in, sometimes you really want to hear from the boss. They may face that challenge at some point.
DUBKE: I think you're getting to the question of whether or not they'll be able to motivate these large bureaucracies. When we change administrations, and we change the direction of these agencies, you know, the individuals that have taken on public service work understand that this is part of that responsibility and will hopefully, you know, take guidance from the new secretary and the new political appointees as to the direction that the chief executive wants that agency to go.
INSKEEP: Let me ask one other aspect of the communications challenge here. The president-elect has made these selections. Many of them are unconventional, controversial or not very experienced in the field that they're supposed to be a leader in now. What kind of message do you think this has sent to the world about the coming administration?
DUBKE: Fasten your seat belts. I think it's a fairly simple message. And these individuals, while not conventional, are going to be disruptors within their agencies. Now, whether or not they're meteors that are going to blow up the agencies or speed bumps, we don't know yet. But these nominees represent a new generation of the way Washington is going to work for better or worse, but it represents a new way forward.
INSKEEP: Mike Dubke, former White House communications director in the first Trump administration. Pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.
DUBKE: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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